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knowdatruth
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xx The understanding of all things....
« Thread started on: Feb 14th, 2011, 09:14am »

While it is not my intention to start anything negative here, there is a point of this entire issue of the rapture that I've yet to see anyone talk about; if there are any references to what I'm about to suggest I would like to know.
Paul states that all Scripture is ordained by God, and that all of it is profitable for our education in spiritual matters. I've noticed in times past that some count the New Testament as being superior to the Old and yet I disagree to a point; most don't know that technically speaking the Gospels are Old Testament because Jesus hadn't yet be resurrected from the dead, the people were still under the Law.
Now, as to what this has to do with the rapture....I've yet to see in any one place in the New Testament a solid definition of the rapture and by that I mean clear evidence of it. I've read all the Scriptures that might point toward it in a vague sense, but nothing clearly stating that it's going to happen and in what order. I have on the other hand read an account that has striking similarities to what is talked about in Revelations, and some of the points that Jesus makes about the End Times. The account that I am referring to is the account of Israel in Egypt. No where else in Scripture is there a more accurate record of such an event as the plagues and other occurrences that mimic the opening of the seals in Revelations.
If in fact the Bible interperetes itself, and it does, then I believe that this is in fact God's way of explaining the events of the Seals at the End of Days. The Church is Israel, the new Israel, as mentioned by Paul. Just as God did not remove Israel from Egypt when He issued out the plagues, neither will He remove us from the World during a time of it's greatest need. Yet He did promise to protect us, as He did Israel in Egypt. At what other time in history will humanity need us who know what's going on more than at that time?
Our Father is kind and just and merciful; He does not rejoice over the deaths of sinners, and every single one of us would be just as doomed to hell without Jesus Christ. The only difference between us and the rest of the world is that we made a choice based on the evidence that we saw for ourselves. There are many people in this world who believe that what they see as "Christianity", and I tell them that it is anything but that. The only reference to Christ most have is the mainstream, the "name it and claim it, blab it and grab it", glorified bless me clubs that parade themselves in front of the world as Christ's Church. These people are deceived into believing that this is what Christ came to give the world, and that this is the kingdom is all about.....It's all a counterfeit....Lucifer is able to to change his appearance into an angel of light and deceive many; he pretends to be Christ to the world, even before he enters into it to establish his corrupt kingdom.

So my friends, this is what I've been shown over the past five years; when I began to see cracks in the concept of the Pretribulation Rapture of the Church. Really what I've shared is just a small part of how all of this works together; I'm not saying that I have all the answers or that I'm painting a complete picture. What I'm getting at is this; I've heard over and over again that the Church is the hands and feet of Christ here on Earth, yet as soon as talk of suffering starts, people want nothing more than to exit stage left. While Jesus did pray that God would spare Him from the whip and the cross, He didn't run away when they came for Him, He walked toward them and gave Himself up to them willingly. None of the Apostles ran from what God was asking of them either, and they knew what was going to happen to them. How many of us would do what Paul did if asked to? Or John? He wrote Revelations while in Exile! Paul was chased by Lucifer from one town to the next, beaten and stoned for what he did, and still he continued on.

In closing I'd like to mention that while the path of Christ and those who follow Him is anything but easy, it is all worth it. While the Rapture does sound good, even to me, the evidence as witnessed in the lives of men like Paul, Peter, and John tell another tale altogether. In the end it's truth we need; understanding is the key to walking this path and it's something that God gives to every man who asks of Him for it.
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xx Re: The understanding of all things....
« Reply #1 on: Feb 17th, 2011, 08:41am »

Many of your points are valid concerns (from your perspective) when looked at from a stand point of the lack of scriptural information (from my perspective.) I will address all the information supplied inside your post in the next couple of days, but the short answer is,,, your current view point would be a genuine possibility, were it not for all the evidence that points to the fact of a Pre-Trib Rapture of The Bride of Christ.

Much of the preliminary information is supplied on our board under the category "The Rapture and its various views", under the thread titled "The Timing of The Rapture". But the crux of the matter is the escape of The Bride from the great tribulation, which constitutes the teaching of The Rapture. (And still, yes I know, there are many across denominational and view point lines that disagree, but we stand on the teachings that are presented on our board.)

From this one perspective, there can be no argument without twisting scripture unnecessarily.

Luke 21:36
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

All other teachings in this passage merely supplement the truth that lies at the heart of the matter.

Revelation 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

There is only one event that will affect the entire world as a whole, at one time, in the whole of history. The great tribulation.

Revelation 2:22
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, "except" they repent of their deeds.

Someone is "not" going into great tribulation. The only candidate is The Bride of Christ from the Partial Rapture perspective, or The Church from the Pre-Trib view.

I can and will expound on these teachings, with the inclusion of passages from the Old Testament as well, (which is just as important as the New). If you would care to choose one of the view point threads, I would be happy to discuss all avenues of study that would present themselves. And I pray several of our regular members would feel inclined to join in.
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xx Re: The understanding of all things....
« Reply #2 on: Feb 18th, 2011, 05:23am »

on Feb 14th, 2011, 09:14am, knowdatruth wrote:
While it is not my intention to start anything negative here, there is a point of this entire issue of the rapture that I've yet to see anyone talk about; if there are any references to what I'm about to suggest I would like to know.


This message board was created for the purpose of discussion (and/or debate of a friendly nature, in the threads where such applies) across the boundaries that normally separate some by their personal view points. Please feel free to address any subject you wish, within the guidelines of the rules. Some subjects need only to be kept within a particular board category or specific thread.

on Feb 14th, 2011, 09:14am, knowdatruth wrote:
Paul states that all Scripture is ordained by God, and that all of it is profitable for our education in spiritual matters.


I would think that comment is a rewording of 2nd Timothy 3:16, (All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Some would think those were subtle differences, but they are not. Without accuracy of the Word, assumed misunderstandings can be applied elsewhere, and false doctrine can (and often does) result.

on Feb 14th, 2011, 09:14am, knowdatruth wrote:
I've noticed in times past that some count the New Testament as being superior to the Old and yet I disagree to a point; most don't know that technically speaking the Gospels are Old Testament because Jesus hadn't yet be resurrected from the dead, the people were still under the Law.


The New Testament holds no superiority over the Old, other than the Old has been fulfilled by the New. And yes, the gospels could very well be considered the final record of the Old Testament, in that it is the record of the transition from the Old to the New.

on Feb 14th, 2011, 09:14am, knowdatruth wrote:
Now, as to what this has to do with the rapture....I've yet to see in any one place in the New Testament a solid definition of the rapture and by that I mean clear evidence of it. I've read all the Scriptures that might point toward it in a vague sense, but nothing clearly stating that it's going to happen and in what order.


The Rapture was somewhat a mystery to the Old Testament saints and prophets, but can be clearly seen by its differences in description from its counterpart, The Glorious Appearing of Christ at the end of the great tribulation. Both are actually recorded in the Old, as well as the New. The primary information concerning the subject can be found in its own thread, The Timing of The Rapture. I will review that thread to make sure all the preliminary information is present.

on Feb 14th, 2011, 09:14am, knowdatruth wrote:
I have on the other hand read an account that has striking similarities to what is talked about in Revelations, and some of the points that Jesus makes about the End Times. The account that I am referring to is the account of Israel in Egypt. No where else in Scripture is there a more accurate record of such an event as the plagues and other occurrences that mimic the opening of the seals in Revelations.


Whereas with its plagues, the story of the exodus of Israel would hold some similarities to the great tribulation, I am unaware of the Lord using it as an illustration as you suggest. He does however use several other past events as illustrations, some of which are direct references to The Rapture. Noah and the flood for example is used twice in the scripture. Once for each of Jesus' comings. The Rapture and the glorious appearing. The fact that it illustrates each and not just one, is a great confusion amongst believers of all groups and views.

on Feb 14th, 2011, 09:14am, knowdatruth wrote:
If in fact the Bible interperetes itself, and it does,


Actually, the phrase is scripture interprets scripture.

on Feb 14th, 2011, 09:14am, knowdatruth wrote:
then I believe that this is in fact God's way of explaining the events of the Seals at the End of Days. The Church is Israel, the new Israel, as mentioned by Paul. Just as God did not remove Israel from Egypt when He issued out the plagues, neither will He remove us from the World during a time of it's greatest need. Yet He did promise to protect us, as He did Israel in Egypt. At what other time in history will humanity need us who know what's going on more than at that time?


God is not finished (and never will be) with Israel. They have been, and always will be his chosen people. He has chosen a new Bride, The Church, and will be married to her eventually. Concerning your illustration, it would still hold valid to national Israel, in that God "will" protect them through the great tribulation, just as he did through the event of the exodus from Egypt. But no one else, just as illustrated.

on Feb 14th, 2011, 09:14am, knowdatruth wrote:
Our Father is kind and just and merciful; He does not rejoice over the deaths of sinners, and every single one of us would be just as doomed to hell without Jesus Christ. The only difference between us and the rest of the world is that we made a choice based on the evidence that we saw for ourselves. There are many people in this world who believe that what they see as "Christianity", and I tell them that it is anything but that. The only reference to Christ most have is the mainstream, the "name it and claim it, blab it and grab it", glorified bless me clubs that parade themselves in front of the world as Christ's Church. These people are deceived into believing that this is what Christ came to give the world, and that this is the kingdom is all about.....It's all a counterfeit....Lucifer is able to to change his appearance into an angel of light and deceive many; he pretends to be Christ to the world, even before he enters into it to establish his corrupt kingdom.


There are many counterfeit Christian sects or organizations today. We were even warned of them by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse recorded by Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

on Feb 14th, 2011, 09:14am, knowdatruth wrote:
So my friends, this is what I've been shown over the past five years; when I began to see cracks in the concept of the Pretribulation Rapture of the Church.


There are no cracks in the armor of the Pre-Trib Rapture teachings. Only those that have failed to analyze all available evidence see apparent contradictions with it within the Word. Taking the scripture at face value, or dissecting it's wording down to their roots, the scriptures are clear in their teaching of a Pre-Tribulational carrying away of the Bride by her BrideGroom Jesus Christ.

on Feb 14th, 2011, 09:14am, knowdatruth wrote:
Really what I've shared is just a small part of how all of this works together; I'm not saying that I have all the answers or that I'm painting a complete picture. What I'm getting at is this; I've heard over and over again that the Church is the hands and feet of Christ here on Earth, yet as soon as talk of suffering starts, people want nothing more than to exit stage left. While Jesus did pray that God would spare Him from the whip and the cross, He didn't run away when they came for Him, He walked toward them and gave Himself up to them willingly. None of the Apostles ran from what God was asking of them either, and they knew what was going to happen to them. How many of us would do what Paul did if asked to? Or John? He wrote Revelations while in Exile! Paul was chased by Lucifer from one town to the next, beaten and stoned for what he did, and still he continued on.


I've never understood the need for some to endure the tribulation, in any respect. The absolute worst that man can imagine that could happen to him and his family, (and I could paint you a gruesome picture) will not even scratch the surface of the true horrors that await those that enter that time. And they are real. It's not a story, an illustration, parable or myth. And I decided in my youth, if there were an escape from it, that could be used to avoid it, I wanted to learn of it in order to know. Most importantly, in order to warn others. Most of what I found in the scripture begins its explanation on this message board. Join me in the study of it.

on Feb 14th, 2011, 09:14am, knowdatruth wrote:
In closing I'd like to mention that while the path of Christ and those who follow Him is anything but easy, it is all worth it. While the Rapture does sound good, even to me, the evidence as witnessed in the lives of men like Paul, Peter, and John tell another tale altogether. In the end it's truth we need; understanding is the key to walking this path and it's something that God gives to every man who asks of Him for it.


Most of the disciples gave their lives in exchange for preaching the truth. All generations have suffered in one form or another, even though some individual Christians have suffered very little. (That's just the luck of the draw). The fact that past generations have suffered personal tribulation, has no bearing on the teachings of The Rapture being valid. Again, I invite all to join me in study.

« Last Edit: Feb 22nd, 2011, 5:12pm by revjwwhitejr@aol.com » User IP Logged

Author of: The Partial Rapture "Theory" Explained / Escaping The Coming Storm
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